Episode 081

The War That Never Ends

As we near the end of the Cherokee War, we'll see the death of Dragging Canoe and several larger battles. We'll also see the formation of the Legion of America, one of the first incantations of a standing army in America.

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[1:09] In January of 1791 a group of land speculators name the Tennessee company from the southwest territory.

Led by James Hubbard and Peter Bryant attempted to gain control of the Muscle Shoals and its vicinity but building a settlement and a fort at the head of the Shoals.


Group of speculators started doing this only a month a few months after it was known as the Treaty of New York and that was when dragging canoes longtime Ally among the Muskogee Alexander McGillivray,

let a delegation of 27 liters North where they signed the Treaty of New York in August of 1790.

With the United States government on behalf of the quote upper middle and lower Creek and Seminole.

Composing the Creek Nation of Indians however the signers did not represent even half of the Muscogee Confederacy,

never too much resistance to the treaty from the peace faction get attacked after the Treaty of Augusta a few episodes ago,

as well as the faction of the Confederacy who wish to continue the war and did so even though the treaty was signed.

[2:28] Never cuz of all the Fallout and turmoil around the Treaty of New York that was one reason that President Washington actually issued an executive order to the Tennessee company and told them not,

the saddle at the head of the shoals in fact he forbid it and that message was relayed to that Tennessee company group.

By the governor of the Southwest territory William Blount.

The glass came down from running water with 60 Warriors and heat descended upon that group from the Tennessee company and that group is actually Captain by Valentine Sevier he was the brother of John Sevier.

Mount the class told the group of men to leave immediately or be killed and they burn their block house as they left.

[3:20] Starting in 1791 by Biggie and his brother the tail.

Baystate willistown began leading attacks against settlers in East Tennessee Southwest Virginia and Kentucky off and in conjunction with double head and his Warriors from cold water.

Eventually popping he became one of the most feared warriors on the frontier.

[3:45] Meanwhile Muscogee scouting parties begin writing the Cumberland settlements again that without mounting any major campaigns or offensive.

The almost a year to the date after we signed the Treaty of New York we find ourselves working with the Treaty of Holston.

Which was signed in July of 1791 and just get ready this episode we’re going to talk about a lot of trees and the name of the episode.

So this particular treaty the Treaty of Holston which was signed in July of 1791.

Required from the upper Town’s more land in return for continued peace because the government proved unable to stop or rollback illegal settlements.

However it also seemed to guarantee Cherokee sovereignty and let the other Cherokee Chiefs to believe they had the same status as States,

that what they mean here by illegal settlements as there’s a chunk of land here that’s kind of deemed this is Cherokee territory so American citizens As you move west,

don’t settle here you can set up anywhere else that’s not in this area,

the people someone ignored that and they would settle in the Cherokee area anyway and that’s what sparked a lot of the conflicts that we’ve seen over the past five or six episodes.

[5:13] Several representatives of the lower Cherokee were present in the negotiations and sign the treaty including John watt double head bloody fellow black box which was dragging canoes nephew.

The badger which was his brother and Rising Fawn.

November of 1791 would bring us actually a very significant battle and this span of time that we started calling the Cherokee Wars or the Chickamauga Wars.

On this particular battle was known as st. Clair’s defeat but you may also know it as the battle of the Wabash at the Battle of the Wabash River.

War the Battle of 1000 slain.

I like the Battle of 1000 slain it sounds like something out of the Game of Thrones that will stick with st. Clair’s defeat in the battle of the Wabash here on the podcast,

particular battle was fought on November 4th of 1791 in the Northwest Territory between the United States and the Western Confederacy of Native Americans.

That was one of the worst defeats in percentage of casualties suffered by the United States Army it was also the largest Victory ever won by American Indians.

[6:29] Now the American Indians were Native Americans war led by little turtle of the Miami’s Blue Jacket of the shawnees in bunco to Hollis of the delawares which was the Lenape Indians.

War party number more than 1,000 Warriors including a large number of Potawatomi from Eastern Michigan and the st. Joseph area.

The opposing force of about 1000 Americans was led by General Arthur st. Clair.

[6:59] On the evening of the 3rd of November St Clare’s Forest had established a camp on a high hill near the present-day location of Fort Recovery Ohio.

Near the headwaters of the Wabash River the Native American Forest that I just described that was led by little turtle in blue jacket or also there they were waiting in the woods until dawn the next morning.

The plan was to wait until the American forces Spectre weapons together and created over to morning meals.

At that point they would technically be unarmed.

[7:36] Adjutant General Winthrop Sargent had just reprimanded the militia for failing to conduct reconnaissance patrols when the native struck which surprised the Americans and other ran their ground.

Little turtle directed the first tech at the militia who fled across the stream without their weapons the regulars and immediately broke their muskets tax formed battle lines and fired a volley into the Indians forcing them back.

Little turtle responded by flanking the regulars and closing in on them.

Meanwhile Sinclair’s artillery was stationed on a nearby Bluff and was Wheeling into position when the gun Crews were killed by Indian Marksman and the survivors were forced to spike their guns.

[8:23] Colonel William dark ordered his Battalion to fix bayonets and charge the main Native American position.

Little turtles forces gave way and retreated to the woods only to encircle darks Battalion and destroy it.

[8:40] That charge was tried numerous times with similar results in the US forces eventually collapse into disorder Sinclair had three horses shot out from under him as he tried in vain to Rally his men.

[8:55] After 3 hours of fighting st.clair call together the remaining officers and faced with total Annihilation decided to attempt one last bayonet charge to get through the Indian landscape.

Supplies and wounded were left in Camp.

As before little turtles Army allow the bandits passed through but this time the men ran for Port Jefferson.

Never pursued by the Indians for about 3 miles before the latter broke off Pursuit and return to boot camp.

[9:28] The exact numbers of wounded are not known but has been recorded that execution fires burned for several days afterwards.

Never those of you that don’t know execution fires are just a fancy way of saying you know burning someone at the stake or burning someone alive as a form of you know death row punishment.

Casualty rate of this battle was the highest percentage ever suffered by United States Army unit and it included st. Clair second-in-command.

252 officers engaged 39 were killed and seven wounded around 88% of all officers became casualties.

After two hours st.clair order to retreat which quickly turned into a rout.

It was in fact a flight st.clair describe the few days later and said in a letter to the Secretary of War.

The American casualty rate among the soldiers was 97.4% and included 632 of 920 killed and 264 wounded.

[10:41] Nearly all of the 200 camp followers were slaughtered for a total of 832 Americans killed.

Approximately one-quarter of the entire US Army had been wiped out.

Only 24 of a 920 officers and Men engaged came out of it unscathed.

Indian casualties were about 61 with at least 21 killed.

[11:08] Number of US soldiers killed during this engagement was more than three times a number the to kill 85 years later at the Battle of Little Bighorn.

The next day the remnants of the force arrived at the nearest US Outpost Fort Jefferson and from there they would return to Fort Washington.

[11:28] After the battle Little Owl the badger and turtle return South with most of the Warriors who the company the first to.

The Warriors who come north years earlier but with turtle at home and a few years before remained in the Ohio region.

The returning Warriors brought back a party of 30 Shawnee under the leadership of one known as Shawnee Warrior that frequently operated alongside Warriors under Little Owl.

Inspired by the news of the Northern victory dragging canoe and barked on a mission to unite the native people of his area has had little turtle in Blue Jacket visiting the other major tribes in the region.

His embassies to the lower Muskogee and the Choctaw were successful but the Chickasaw and West Tennessee refused his overtures.

On his return which coincided with that of the glass and Dick Justice.

End of turtle at home from successful raids on settlements along the Cumberland and then Kentucky is huge All Night Celebration was held at stick Kodi at which the eagle dance was performed in dragging canoes honor.

[12:40] The morning March 1st at 1792 dragging canoe was dead.

A procession of Honor carried his body to running water where he was buried.

By the time of his death the resistance of the Chickamauga lower Cherokee that led to grudging respect from the settlers as well as the rest of the Cherokee Nation.

He was even memorialized at the general Council of the nation held in Houston allow you in June by his nephew black fox.

Said quote
the dragging canoe has left this world.

He was a man of consequence and his country he was a friend to both his own and the white people.

His brother is still in place and I mention it now publicly but I intend presenting him with his deceased brother’s metal.

He promised his fare to possess sentiments similar to those of his brother both with regard to the red and white.

It is mentioned here publicly that both red and white may know it and pay attention to him.

[13:49] It’s with the death of dragging canoe that were able to move into the last two years of the Chickamauga War.

Quincy John Watts who had spent much of the war affecting friendship and pacifism towards his American counterparts while living most of the time I’m going to Overhill Cherokee.

Drop his facade as he took over from his mentor.

John Watts whose maiden name was Kenickie would Now find himself succeeding dragging canoe as the leader of the lower Cherokee.

The author of the book succeeded him as head man of running water along with bloody fellow and doublehead you continue dragon can use policy of Indian Unity.

Cleaning an agreement with mcgilvery of the upper Muskogee to build joint block houses from which Warriors have both tribes can operate at the junction of Tennessee and clinch rivers that running water and at Muscle Shoals.

[14:46] What’s talenti ski and young dragging canoe.

His actual name was Azula War Redbox
travel to Pensacola in May at the invitation of Arturo O’Neill who was Spanish governor of West Florida.

He took with him letters of introduction from John McDonald once there they forged a treaty with O’Neal for Arms and Supplies with which to carry on the war.

Upon returning North that moved his base of operations to Wells town in order to be closer to his Muskogee allies and Spanish supply line.

[15:26] Watch at the time of dragon can use death had been serving As an interpreter during the Goshi Asians and Chouteau.

Twin the American government and the Overhill Cherokee.

Trout the voice of until the time he became principal chief of the lower Cherokee many whites mistook him for a non belligerent most notably Johnson fear when he mistakenly contracted watts to guide him to Dragon canoes headquarter.

September of 1782.

[15:55] Female John McDonald now prettiest Indian Affairs superintendent move to Turkey town with his assistant Daniel Ross and their families.

Some of the other Chiefs such as the class of running water the breadth of nickel check and pick Justin up stuco you abstained from active warfare.

That did nothing to stop the Warriors in their towns from taking part in raids and campaigns.

[16:22] That summer the band of Shawnee Warrior and the party of little I’ll begin joining the range of the Muskogee on the Metro District.

[16:32] In late June they attacked a small fortified settlement called Ziegler station swarming it killing the men and taking the women and children prisoner.

[16:43] In September of 1792 what’s orchestrated a large campaign intended to attack the Holston region with a large combined Army and four bands 200 each.

When the Warriors for Mustang has to call you however he learned that their planned attack was expected and decided to aim for Nashville instead.

[17:07] The Army which led into the Cumberland region was nearly a thousand strong including a contingent of Calgary.

History of four-pronged attack in which talented Casey and Bob Biggie’s brother the tale that a party to Ambush the Kentucky Road.

Double head with another to the Cumberland Road and middle Striker let another to do the same on Walton Road.

War watch himself with the main Force which is made up of 280 Cherokee Shawnee in Muskogee Warriors plus Calgary.

Intending to go against the fort at Nashville he sent out George fields.

And John Walker Jr as Scouts ahead of the army and they killed the two Scouts sent out by James Robertson from Nashville.

[17:57] Near their target on the evening of the 30th of September what is combined Force Came Upon a small Fort known as Buchanan station.

Tyler to ski leader of the Muskogee wanted to attack it and immediately while Watts argued in favor of saving it for the return South.

After much bickering what’s caving in around midnight
the assault proved to be a disaster for Watts.

He himself was wounded and many of his warriors were killed including tality ski and some of watches best leaders Shawnee Warrior that gets key and dragging canoes brother little owl.

Were among those who died in the encounter.

Double heads group of 60 ambushed a party of six and took one scalp and then headed towards Nashville.

On their way they were attacked by a militia force and lost 13 men.

And only heard of the disaster at Buchanan station afterwards talenti skis party meanwhile stayed out until early October.

Attacking black station on Crooked Creek killing three wounding more and capturing several horses.

Middle Strikers party was more successful.

Ambushing a large Armed Force coming to the mirror just write down the Walton Road and November and routing it without losing a single man.

[19:26] Revenge for the deaths at Buchanan station.

Popping a double head and his brother pumpkin boy let a party of 60 in to Southwestern Kentucky and early 1793 during which their Warriors in an Act initiated by double head.

Cooked and ate the enemies they had just killed.

Afterwards double heads party return cell and helps cat dances at stick Kodi turn Uptown and Willis Tower,

Warriors from those towns had also participated in the raid in addition to his and binkies groups.

[20:05] Joseph of the Brown family that we discussed a few episodes ago was a member of the station’s Garrison but had been at his mother’s house 3 miles away at the time of the battle.

He learned of the death of his friend take jet ski he is reported to have more and greatly
the engagement at Buchanan station was going on.

The party of Muskogee under and mixed breed leader named Leslie invaded the Houston region and began attacking isolated farmsteads.

Wesley’s party continued harassment of the Holston settlements until the summer of 1794.

1 hanging moss and his men with the volunteers from the host and settlements to pursue them.

Killing tooth and handing over a third to the whites for trial and execution.

After the failed Cherokee attack on Buchanan station the Muskogee increase their attacks on the Cumberland in both size and frequency.

[21:05] Besides scalping Rage 2 parties attack Bledsoe station in Greenfield station in April of 1793.

Another party attacked hey station in June.

In August the karate from Coosada rated the country around Clarksville Tennessee attacking the homestead of the baker family.

Killing all but two who escaped and 1 taken prisoner he was later arrested at Coosada town.

A war party of Tuskegee from the Muskogee town of that name was also active in Middle Tennessee at this time.

[21:42] In early 1793 once again rotating large war parties back and forth between the lower towns and the north at the behest of his allies in the western Confederacy.

Which was beginning to lose ground to the region of the United States that have been created in the aftermath of the battle of the Wabash.

With the exception of the 1793 campaign against the Holston,

his attention was more focused on the North that on the Southwest territory and its environment during these next two years,

shortly after a delegation of Shawnee stopped instantly and that spring on their way to call on the Muskogee and Choctaw.

Punish the Chickasaw for joining Sinclair’s Army in the North.

What’s an invoice to Knoxville which was then the capital of the Southwest territory to meet with Governor Williams want to discuss terms for peace.

Blonde in times past the Opera Philadelphia which invited to lower Cherokee leaders to a meeting with President Washington.

Party that was sent from the lower towns that may included Bob McGee more Talent Tuskegee Captain Charlie of running water and double head among several others.

Party from the Lower Town stopped and Quixote because hanging mole and other Chiefs from the other towns were going also and had gathered there along with several whites who had arrived earlier.

Large party of lowered Cherokee path killer aka the rich among them have been raiding the upper east and they killed two men and stolen 20 horses.

[23:20] On the way out I passed through Quixote to which the pursuit party track them.

The militia violated their orders not to cross the little Tennessee then the border between the Cherokee Nation in the southwest territory and entered the town shooting in discriminately.

And the ensuing chaos 11 men were killed including Captain Charlie and silver wounded including hanging off his wife and daughter double head and tell him to ski.

What are the white delegates was also among the Dead.

The Cherokee even watch this hostile Warriors agreed to await the outcome of the subsequent trial which proved to be a force in large part because John beard the man responsible was a close friend of John Sevier.

[24:08] Watch responded to Beer’s acquittal by inviting the whole scenario with one of the largest Indian forces ever seen in the region over 1000 Cherokee and Muskogee plus a few shiny intending to attack Knoxville itself.

The plan was to have four bodies of troops March toward Knoxville separately converging at a previously agreed on Rendezvous point on the way.

[24:33] In August what attacked Henry station the force of 200 but fell back due to overwhelming gunfire coming from the fort.

Not wanting to risk another Misfortune like that it can and station the previous year.

[24:48] Fort Collins conversion month later near the present Loudon Tennessee and proceeded toward their target.

On the way the Cherokee leaders were discussing among themselves whether to kill all the inhabitants of Knoxville are just a min.

James Van advocating the ladder while double head argued for the former.

[25:11] Brother on the path they encountered a small settlement called Cabot station.

After that surrounded the place being negotiated with the inhabitants the green that if they surrendered their lives would be spared.

However after the sellers have walked out.

Double his group and has Muskogee allies attacked and began killing them all over please of Biggie and the others.

Can manage to grab one small boy and pull him onto his saddle only to have double head smash the boys skull with an axe.

What’s intervened in time to save another young boy handing him to bed he put the boy behind him on his horse and later handed him over to three of the Muskogee for safekeeping.

Unfortunately one of the Muskogee Chiefs killed the boy and Scout them a few days later.

[26:03] Because of this incident Vantage double head baby killer deliberately parroting The Honorable title mankiller for the remainder of his life.

And also began a lengthy Feud which to find the politics of the early 19th century Cherokee Nation.

Only ended in 1807 with double heads death at Vans orders.

At this time tensions among Cherokee broke out and such vehement arguments that the forest broke up with the main group retiring South.

That this pushes us into another battle which it is referred to as the battle of atoa.

Are the Battle of Hightower the word of the massacre at Kent Station spread quickly and Jon severe raised forced to come back to Cherokee.

Cherokee for split up with some heading towards Kentucky and some toward North Carolina but most had toward Georgia.

Severus mencanta Cherokee at the Village of what he called Hightower with the Native Americans typically referred to as 800 which is near the present-day site of Rome Georgia.

Cherokee created defensive position on Myrtle Hill and use a guard to try and prevent severe from 42 Rivers.

[27:22] Severe left a written account of the battle in which he described the attempt to cross the river about a mile south of Myrtle Hill drawing the Cherokee Defenders out of their prepared positions.

The Galloping back to Myrtle Hill to cross their the Cherokee rush back to contest the crossing of the tower but failed.

When Kingfisher was killed the remaining Warriors fled and severe burn the village.

[27:49] Now that he was unopposed Severus Forest moved West on the Coosa River destroying Cherokee and Creek Villages before returning to the Knoxville area.

The Battle of Hightower was Severus last of many battles against the Native Americans and came to be known as his Attila campaign.

It was the last pitch battle between the lower Cherokee under John Watts and American forces until the Nickajack expedition in September of 1794.

I mentioned a few minutes ago that we are moving into the end of the war with the death of dragging canoe was really just the beginning of the end so now we’re kind of moving into the middle of the end of the Chickamauga Wars.

That’s going to start in late June of 1794.

The federal government has signed yet another treaty with the Cherokee the Treaty of Philadelphia which essentially reaffirm the land sessions of the 1785 Treaty of Hopewell and the 1791 Treaty of Holston.

Of note is the fact that it was signed both by double head and bloody fellow.

[28:59] Not even know what treaty was signed later in that summer party of Cherokee under white man killer that was also known as George Fields overtook a river party under 1 William Scott at Muscle Shoals,

killing is flight passengers losing its goods and taking the slaves captive.

In August of the same year Thomas Brown who is now working as Indian agent to the Chickasaw for the United States sent word from Chickasaw territory to General Robertson of the Miro District.

Has the Cumberland region was then called that the Cherokee in the Muskogee were about to launch attacks All Along The River.

1 party of 100 was going to take canoes down the Tennessee to the Lower River while another 400 was going to take over land after passing through the 5 lower tabs and picking up reinforcements.

[29:55] The river party actually began on their way to make the attacks but dissension in the larger mixed Muskogee Cherokee Overland party caused by the actions of hanging moss against the party of Leslie and the Halton region.

Broken up for the reach the area and only three small parties made it to Cumberland operating into at least September.

[30:20] I just moved into what was known as the Nickajack Expedition.

Not Desiring to end the war once and for all Robertson send a Detachment of us regular troops Miro militia in Kentucky volunteers to the five lower towns under US Army Major James Orr.

Guided by those who knew the area including former Captain Joseph Brown or is Army travel down the Cisco and st. Augustine Trail tours the five lower tabs.

The 13th of September the Army attacked Nickajack without warning slaughtering many of the inhabitants including its past this Chief the breath.

The next torching the houses proceeded upriver to burn running water whose residents had long fled.

Brown take an active part in the fighting but it’s known to have attempted to spare women and children.

[31:15] The actual Cherokee casualties were much lighter than they might have been because the majority of both towns were in Will’s Town attending a major stickball game,

the stick ball is very very similar to Lacrosse in fact it’s kind of the origins quote and quote of lacrosse.

One last battle will discuss will be that of the battle of the Fallen Timbers.

That’s going to involve our good old friend mad Anthony Wayne and his new Army the Legion of the United States.

That March North from Fort Washington in Cincinnati in 1793 and it was a building for it says it went.

Wayne had at his command around 2,000 men with Choctaw and Chickasaw men serving as his Scouts.

[32:02] Blue jacket at taking a defensive position along the Maumee River not far from present-day Toledo Ohio War stand of trees which is the Fallen Timbers have been blown down by a recent storm.

[32:16] I thought the trees would slow down the advance of Wayne’s Legion.

Portmiami a nearby British outpost on American soil that supplied the Native American Confederacy with provisions.

The Native American forces numbering about 1,500.

Are composed of Blue Jackets shawnee’s become Golly’s Delaware’s or the Lenape Miami is led by little turtle way in. Slept around head.

Enterprise Ottawa that want me to pick mangoes and a British company of Canadian militiamen under Captain Alexander mckillop.

The battle ended really quickly.

Ends soldiers clothes and press the attack with a Bayonet charge is Cavalry outflank Blue Jackets Warriors who are easily rooted,

the indian warriors fled towards Fort Miami but we’re surprised to find the gates closed against them.

Major William Campbell the British commander of the fort refused to a system unwilling to start a war with the United States.

Wayne’s Army had wanted to say Victory the soldiers spent several days destroying the nearby Native American villages and crops then retreated.

[33:32] Wings Army had lost 33 men and had about a hundred wounded.

They reported that they had found 3240 dead Warriors Alexander McKee of the british-indian department reported that the Indian Confederacy lost 19 Warriors killed,

6 white men fighting on the Native Americans that were also reported killed the destruction of the town’s by Robertson,

the death of Bob banking in April and recent defeat by Mad Anthony Wayne’s Army at Fallen Timbers plus the fact that the Spanish could not support the Cherokee War,

due to problems they were having with Napoleon the first of France convinced watts to end the fighting once and for all.

Two months later on the 7th of November 1794 yet another tree the Treaty of Tellico Blockhouse was signed.

And finally into the series of conflicts history was notable because it did not require any further cessation of land other than requiring the lower,

what a chicken nugget Cherokee to recognize those of the Holston treaty.

Which led to a period of relative peace that would last into the 19th century
Fuquay cops patients at the end of this week’s episode.

Number 1 yes this is a little bit longer episode than what I normally do probably going to clock in at close to 45 minutes by the time we’re all said and done however.

[35:05] I know you guys aren’t necessarily thrilled with the Cherokee War has you were with the Revolutionary War so I wanted to wrap it up and get it done instead of dragging it out a little bit further.

Also the title of this episode The Never Ending war is simply me trying to be cute with the fact that there were many many trees that were signed that many people tended to ignore.

Also wanted to briefly talk about what was known as the Legion of the United States this is actually a precursor,

to a standing United States Army to the reason they decided to create this region came after st. Clair’s defeat at the Battle of Wabash,

the founding fathers had been suspicious of standing armies and they thought that Melissa would be suited to all the nations defense needs,

however the defeat of Sinclair whose forces were drawn principally from State militias cause a shift in thinking.

President Washington drafted a list of 16 General officers from the Revolutionary War to lead an expanded Army in the Northwest including Benjamin Lincoln Daniel Morgan and Frederick Wilhelm von Steuben.

After Consulting with his cabinet he picked Wayne to lead a new professional Army although Washington did originally considered him too vain.

[36:31] At the recommendation of Secretary of War Henry Knox it was decided to recruit and train a legion a force that would combine all land combat arms that the day.

Cavalry heavy and light infantry and artillery.

821 efficient Brigade size Force divisible into stand-alone combined-arms team.

[36:55] Congress agreed with this proposal and agreed to augment the still small standing army.

Until quote the United States she’ll be at peace with the Indian tribes.

The legion was composed The Four sub-regions each commanded by lieutenant colonel.

He said Legions for self-contained units with two battalions of infantry rifle Battalion a troop of dragoons and a battery of artillery.

What are combined arms organization two sub-regions can be seen as forerunners of today’s Brigade combat teams.

[37:31] Allegiant was recruited and raised in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania is eventually divided into four sub-regions.

These were created from elements of the 1st and 2nd regiments of the US Army use units then became the first and second sub Legions.

The third and fourth sub Legions were raised from former recruits.

From June of 1792 to November of 1792 the region remained stationed at Fort Lafayette and Pittsburgh.

[38:00] Delete and then move to the United States military’s first basic training facility at Legion Field in Western Pennsylvania on the banks of the Ohio River.

Frontier Fort was built on the orders of General Anthony Wayne.

That’s probably brief enough I just wanted to give you guys an overview on what that was I found out that was,

pretty interesting and I thought that you might your listeners would find that interesting as well,

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